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Standards

Discussion in 'General' started by Alex_hawks, May 28, 2013.

  1. Alex_hawks Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    After reading some of the threads in the Mods -> Mekanism section, I'm thinking that we will need to create some standards for certain operations, and conversions, and a standard class in UE that will assist in conversions.

    The operations in question include, but are not limited to;
    • Smelting,
    • Auto-crafting,
    • Auto-mining,
    • High-efficiency refining (double / triple ore output)
    Through the conversions, energy output of generators relative to the operations must scale to match existing systems, such as BuildCraft, or IC2.

    The energy units and systems in Forge mods that are known to me are;
    • Minecraft Joules (MJ) (Pneumatic Power, in BuildCraft and Thermal Expansion)
    • Energy Units (EU) (Industrial Craft and Industrial Craft 2)
    • Charge (???) (Factorization)
    • Joules / Watt Hours (J / W) (Universal Electricity)
    • Watts, Expressed as Volts and Amps (???) (RedPower 2)
    We will need a standard rate of conversion to and from each one, and a conversion helper class, if we are to be 'universal'.
    I am volunteering to write this, though. But I will write it after all the values are agreed on by the prominent members of the Universal Electricity community, and the layout of the conversion helper is agreed on by the modders using Universal Electricity.
  2. Andre Member

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Well, for value I think for MJ one MJ should = one KW (UE), as for others, I don't know since I don't use others
  3. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    That's a good idea. But pleas take into account that it's should take into account not only energy balance, bout also a power balance

    Smelting/Doubling - I like the 1KW per slot that Aidan came with. 200W was too low, but current values seem good. Maybe a bit more for doubling. Like 2KW for grinding/enriching. Ore doubling is a pretty basic part of most tech mods, so I don't think that doubling should eat much power.
    However, you should add also a standard for exact amount of energy required for operation since Aidan's speed upgrades also vastly increase the efficiency of the device
    without upgrades smelting/enriching/purifuing one item costs 10KJ, wit upgrades - 1.1KJ.

    Autocrafting is a good question. I actually didn't dig into Assembly line too much so I don't know how is it going. But I don't think that it should eat too much power. The best autocrafting system I know is Applied Energistics one,

    Automining is the hardest part. There are different kinds of autominers - quarries, tunnel bores, miners and so on. It should be a pretty good amount of power - like 50 KW as a "basic value", maybe, but that depends on mining speed and miner type.

    Ore tripling is another good question. Mekanism solves that problem by adding two extra steps to ore processing line and flint requirements. That's a decent solution. Basically to process one ore via purification chamber and other machines it takes 3.33 times more power than simply by using Enrichment Chamber.

    Conversion ratios. I will compare it to Mekanism machines and generators since it's the most used mod and since it's the basic mod that produces power and performs basic tasks.

    1) Eu-MJ (buildcraft) ratio is pretty much fixed in the community. That's 1 MJ = 2.5 Eu. Some modders think that it's too much, but it is almost a standard.
    2) RedPower2 has no API and I don't think that for now it should be take into account. Eloraam hates other people messing with her code.

    Let's talk about UE -> Eu/MJ.




    Industrial Craft 2

    Basic devices:
    Well' that's a really interesting question.
    Let's do some calculations using IC2 basic operations
    Furnace:
    - It takes 390 Eu to process one item at the rate of 3 Eu/tick, or 60 Eu/second
    - Mekanism smelter eats 1 KW of power for 10 seconds to smelt one item (without upgrades) thus resulting in 10KJ per item. Upgrades decrease that dramatically, so, as I said, that should be fixed. But according to unupgraded versions 10KJ ~~ 400Eu or 1 Eu = 25 J

    Macerator:
    - IC2 macerator eats 2 Eu/t for 20 seconds resulting in 800 Eu
    - Mekanism's values are exactly the same for both enriching and smelting. 10KJ = 800 Eu, or 1 Eu = 12.5 J
    Inetersting. Well, As I already said it might be a good idea to bump energy consumption for macerating to 2KW. Or make it slower.

    Induction furnace:
    This is an interesting device. It consumes 1 Eu/t constantly to maintain heat and produce two items at once without increasing the energy usage.
    During operation it consumes 16 Eu/t or 320 Eu/s. With the ratios we already calculated that's about 8 KW. It takes 208 Eu to smelt 2 items at maximum heat, or 104 Eu/item.
    With our ratio (1 Eu = 25J) that's 2.5 KJ. Upgraded Mekanism smeltery can be even more efficient, but, as I already said, upgrades should be changed a bit.

    Generators:
    Please note that I don't like IC2 generator balance. But there are some basic things I want to point at

    Basic generator:
    It's the generator you use at the start in IC2 and usually don't use later.
    Output: 10 Eu/t (200 Eu/s). 4000 Eu per piece of coal/charcoal.
    Well, Mekanism heat generator produce 2KW and 16KJ per piece of coal/chacoal. I't less efficient than IC2 Generator if we use 1 Eu = 25 J ratio. It's 1.6 smelting operations per 1 coal, so that might be a bit underpowered (Vanilla furnace is 8 operations/coal)
    Suggestion to Aidan: increase the coal lifetime in the heat generator fivefold.
    Heat generator can also produce power passively, generating 100W per adjacent lava block. That's 500W maximum. So, that makes heat generator more like a passive power generation. So, we should compare it to:

    Watermill:
    Passive generator that produces up to 0.25 Eu/t unmanned or 1 Eu/t with water supply, 1000 Eu per bucket.
    With x25 Eu -> UE conversion ratio unmanned watermill generates 125W so, that's lower than a heatgen. With water supply it produces exactly 500W - that's maximum for unmanned heatgen.
    With x25 ratio heat generator seems to be a mix between IC2 watermill and IC2 generator (except for coal lifetime issue). OK, that doesn't look bad. But that's just "starter" generators. Let's look for something that's more commonly used in midgame:

    Solar Panel:
    The most abused generator for it's simplicity and being maintenance-free.
    1 Eu/t during the day. That's it. x25 ratio gives us 500W of power, It's almost similar to Mekanism's 600W solar. That seems pretty good. Advanced Mekanism solar produces 3.6 KW. There's no counterpart in IC2 except for some overpowered addons.

    Windmills:
    Some people use it over the solar panels. There are some complex math of most efficient usage of IC2 windmills. It outputs up to 11 Eu/t, but it has a chance of breaking if it produces more than 5 Eu/t and tin cables can sustain only 5 Eu/t.
    Well, I'm not a windmill expert, but maximum for IC2 windmills is 2,5 KW with x25 ratio. It's a bit harder to set up a windmill so it will produce exactly 5 Eu/t, and It also suffers from thunderstorms. Mekainsm wind turbine produces about 1.7 KW at y = 64, takes more space and seem to ignore thunderstorms. I'm not sure whether the balance is fine with this ratio (at y = 250 Mekanism wind turbine produce about 5 KW), since Mekanism turbines seem to be more powerful and easy to use. But that's not such a big imbalance.

    Geothermal Generator:
    It's OP. Just because there are a source of free lava - Nether and ways to easily get it with other mods. 20 Eu/t constantly with a bit of maintenance (moving the pump in the Nether) That's 10KW of power with x25 ratio. There's no counterpart in Mekanism, but there is a generator that can produce a good amount of power non-stop: Hydrogen generator. Output - 6KW, minus the power required to power Electrolytic Separator (1 KW). That's results in 5KW energy gain. it's a bit worse and HydroGen + ES combo is a more expensive, but there are two points:
    1) GeoGen is OP.
    2) No maintenance at all.
    So, that's pretty good.

    Nuclear Reactor:
    Well, It seems like we should talk about Atomic Science a bit.
    Good IC2 reactors produce 300-400 Eu/t for some resources (mostly copper) according to reactor design thread from IC2 forums. There are also 285 Eu/t reactor with no running cost (except for uranium cells). OK. that's 150-200KW. You can get approximately the same amount of power out of AS fission reactor, but it also requires a lot of power to refine uranium (10 KW + 16 KW + 2-3x 10 KW) - that's about 50 KW almost constantly, since uranium refining process is pretty long. And IC2 cells live much longer. Well, values are still pretty close and AS seem to be a bit underpowered for now.

    I can definitely say that 1 Eu = 25 J is a pretty fair amount for IC2 - UE power conversion. Some of the mods and devices require balancing, but not a huge balancing No I'll post it, then take a rest and try to analyze Thermal Expansion values.
  4. Alex_hawks Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    That is an interesting read...

    Like I said, we need standards, which should result in changes to energy production and consumption
  5. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    Thermal Expansion/Buildcraft.

    Let's analyze Thermal Expansion and other Buildcraft-compatible machines to figure out which conversion ratios do we want to use.
    note: "mJ" stands for Minecraft Joule. "MJ" stands for UE megajoule.

    Devices.
    Once again, Let's start with basic operation.

    Powered Furnace:
    Input power: 2 mJ/t (max). Operation cost: 160 mJ (40 mJ for food)
    It also works a bit faster than IC2 counterpart. And it has cheaper cost for food.
    It seems like here is almost the default Eu - mJ ratio: 1 mJ = 2.5 Eu (IC2 furnace takes 390 Eu to smelt an item). Let's use that as our base value. That means that 1 mJ = 62.5 J
    Power consumption of the powered furnace with such conversion is 2,5 KW. That seems too high, but note that it takes 4 seconds to smelt an item while Mekanism's 1KW smelter require 10 seconds for that.

    Pulverizer:
    Slightly improved macerator. Can give extra resources.
    Input Power: 4 mJ/t (max). Operation cost: 320 mJ
    Like Macerator, it also costs 2x power required by furnace to pulverize something. But pulverizer is much faster. It doesn't take upgrades, however.
    Conversion ratio 1 mJ = 62.5 J is also seem fair since it's still standard ratio for Eu <-> mJ conversion.
    Again, 2.5 times more power than suggested maceration power, but that machine is much faster.

    Induction Smelter:
    The device that's able to triple your ore. However, It's a pretty limited ability since you need to smelt some ore first. It's also a way to have cheaper ore processing since it combines pulverizer and a furnace in one device. However, it requires sand to operate.
    Input Power: 4 mJ/t (max). Operation cost: 320 mJ
    Requires extra resources to run so it cannot be directly compared to other devices except for Purification Chamber. But full ore-tripling of Mekanism requires much more machines than just Purificaton Chamber and Smelter. However unbalanced upgrades are still making it too cheap.

    There are a lot more devices in TE, but most of them have no IC2 or UE counterparts, so there's no way to compare them. Let's just point to Magma Crucible which consumes up to 40 mJ/t (50KW with 62.5x conversion ratio) and take 24000 mJ to smelt cobble to lava (1.5MJ). It seems pretty fair to power it with such ratio.

    Buildcraft Quarry:
    Thes most used autominer. 50 mJ/t or 62.5 KW with that ratio. That's close enough for the ~50 KW I suggested before. Requires some serious power source.


    Generators.

    BC power production is very different from IC2. For a long time it had no power storage and almost no passive generation. Let's look at basic engines first:

    Redstone engine:
    Output: 1 mJ/s constantly or 62.5W with 62.5x conversion
    It's mainly for extracting items from pipes so, that's not really a power source.

    Stirling engine:
    A basic engine for power production. BC version of IC2 generator.
    Output: 1 mJ/t. One piece of coal produces 1600 mJ.
    With 62.5x conversion it's just 1.25KW. It's much more efficient than heat generator and gives exactly the same amount of energy as IC2 generator if converted as 1 mJ = 2.5 Eu. But that's actually not the best power source after all. People usually use other engines such as

    Hobbyist Steam Engine:
    Efficiency star from Railcraft. Uses the boiler mechanics and requires water and heat-up stage. Actually, you don't want to turn it off.

    Output: 1.6 mJ/t. When heated up one piece of coal lasts for 400s (charcoal - 200s). That's 6400 mJ/coal and 3200 mJ/charcoal.
    It's almost the same as stirling engine, but much more efficient when heated up. 2KW using 62.5x conversion.
    Yep. That's it. Sounds pretty balanced.

    That's the starting engines. Let's look at more powerful things:

    Combustion engine:
    Aha, here is the serious business. 6 mJ/t running on fuel. Requires water to operate. Using the calculated conversion ration that gives us 7.5KW.
    Actually, there's no generators in Mekanism with such output. But it requires fuel that's not renewable and also need to be refined. Refinery consumes 25 mJ/t or 31.2 KW, so, that also seems like a good deal, since you need several of these engines to actually start generating power. This might be a middle-tier between AS generators and Mekanism hydro-gens.

    The ultimate power source:
    The Mighty 36HP-Boiler:
    Top-tier of RailCraft boilers. I won't do the efficiency calculations since nobody runs this when he doesn't have infinite fuel production:
    18 Industrious Steam Engines produce 144 mJ/t. That's 180KW. Well. It's a bit more than Atomic Science can give us right now, but as I said, it's balance is not good enough.
    It still requires some sort of tree farm and processing, so actual output would be a bit less.

    Well, some generators require balancing (some Mekanism and Atomic Science ones). But I think that should be good:

    Conversion ratios:
    1 Eu = 25 J
    1 mJ = 62.5 J

    I'm not sure about Factorization, since there's no that many things you can power with it.

    Power requirements for basic operations:
    Smelting:
    1KW for 10 seconds.
    Machine can run faster, but should consume more power. So, basic smelting cost is 10KJ

    Macerating:
    2KW for 10 seconds
    Machine can run faster, but should consume more power. So, basic maceration cost is 20KJ

    Ore Tripling:
    That's good enough as it is except for speed upgrade OP-ness :3
    Basically, ore tripling should require extra resources and some multi-stage processing. Exact power requirements are hard to predict, so let's leave it for modder's sanity and imagination :3
  6. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    Um... Am I did something wrong? I doubt you can make all the modders change their mods dramatically, so I just tried to research the current values a bit and find the issues we have. Even if you can make UE modders to change their minds, you cannot change other mods, so you have to take them into account since you want UE to be "universal" and support other mods. Some modders make things that they think balanced and no people use them since they are too expensive or not efficient enough

    For example, these values show that for now, in UE mods there are no good endgame power sources that can be fully automated. There's also a big gap between Hydrogen generators and AS reactors.
  7. Alex_hawks Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    You have done nothing wrong, I just didn't word that correctly, and don't have a good idea at the moment about how I could / should word it...

    Also:
    • the quarry takes up to 45 mJ,
    • the Hobbyist's Steam Engine can produce up to 2 mJ/t, but can only produce enough steam to run itself at 1.6 mJ/t
    Thank you for your very detailed analysis of the various other power networks. Gives the UE Modders some food for thought...
  8. Hans_Lemurson New Member

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2013
    Lurked for a few days, while I played around with various reactor designs in Voltz 1.14, and I found that one of the biggest imbalances was with Steam and Reactor Turbines. Using Railcraft Steam production with Atomic-Science Turbines = OMFG. You have no control over what Railcraft does, but this thread is about getting proper conversion values, since AS and Railcraft have interchangeable steam.

    A Size-1 Low-Pressure boiler from Railcraft seems to generate about 160 Steam/second. (Measured by using Fluid Mechanic's Genaric Pipes to transfer Steam into a Railcraft Iron Tank)
    A Steam-funnel above a hot electromagnet in an active fusion reactor seems to generate around 8 Steam/second, but was difficult to measure.

    A Railcraft Boiler makes the mighty Fusion Reactor look like a Tea-kettle.
    However, because AS produces so little Steam, its Reactor Turbines make a lot of power from very little Steam.

    An Atomic Science Large-Turbine Can be run at full capacity with as little as 200 Steam/second. That's 200 Steam becoming 180 kiloJoules, or 900J per Steam (AS Turbines use 100 steam per second per adjacent steam-pipe, and 2 pipe connections will run a large turbine)
    A Railcraft Steam-Turbine generates 100kW and uses about 6400 Steam/Second at full capacity. 6400 Steam becoming 100 kiloJoules works out to ~16J per steam.
    This is a nearly 600-fold differential in energy production. Although this allows for the construction of 10 MegaWatt power plants from a steam boiler, which although AWESOME, is a bit unbalanced. Also it means that you can't have a railcraft steam-network powered by Fusion, since AS's steam output is so low.

    Bringing Atomic Science's Steam to rough parity with Railcraft will require a massive increase in the production and consumption of Steam.

    Water above a hot electromagnet should produce something on the order of 1,000 steam/second (possibly more the hotter it is)
    A Reactor Turbine (small) should consume around 1,000 steam/second as well. At 20KiloWatts, it would still outperform Railcraft's Steam Turbine (20J per Steam). At its old value of 12KiloWatts (equal to a Hydrogen Generator), it would underperform compared to the Railcraft Turbine (12J/Steam), but would compensate by being less expensive and maintenance-free.
    A Large reactor Turbine, which generates 9x the power should use at LEAST 6x the steam as a single small one. A 1.5x efficiency boost is more reasonable than a 4.5x one. At its old value of 108KiloWatts, it would surpass the Railcraft Turbine (18Joules/Steam versus 15.6), but not egregiously so (while still being less expensive zero-maintenance).

    These changes would make Atomic Science's steam numerically compatible with Railcraft's. This cannot be solved by a energy-conversion factor, since both mods are using the SAME steam with a one-to-one correspondence. Balance will require changes to Atomic Science.
    (Given that these are changes specific to Atomic Science, should the discussion occur in that subforum, or is it appropriate to this discussion of "Standards"?)
  9. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    Um... you are using old turbine values. turbines do not produce 180 KW for now. Only 36 KW large, 4KW small. Current AS balance is actually... not good. Fusion reactor eats tons of tin and power and produce... much less energy than you expect and deuterium cells are produced horribly slow. I don't want to build fusion reactor in my world since it's more of a hassle than a serious power production...
    And, you are right that's not for this thread. Talk to Calclavia.

    And RC steam turbine is just bad...
  10. Andre Member

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2013
    I agree with you, railcraft is underpowered and AS's power production is purely just ____(Drop the S-bomb over here)
  11. Andre Member

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2013
    It actually requires multi-stage and extra material, if you use mekansim.
  12. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    That's why I'm saying that Mekanism's approach on ore tripling is good.
  13. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    Alex, can you please explain what's going on there? Calclavia decided to drop UE entirely?
  14. Alex_hawks Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    IDK, I think that he's planned to make UE use a BuildCraft power framework at it's core, similar to how TE deos it, but with different features...
  15. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    How would that affect your idea? Cause I really like what you are trying to make.
  16. Alex_hawks Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    It would enforce the need for a standard ration for pneumatic...
  17. PonyKuu Member

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Equestria
    Well, as my calculations show 1 KJ (UE) = 16 mJ (BC) is a good ratio.
    However, you can assume that 1 KJ = 1 mJ as Calc suggests, and rework the outputs.
  18. DarkGuardsman Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ohio,USA
    I really need to start reading the forum some more as this would have been nice for my power research. Thank you PonyKuu for pointing it out on github for me. Anyways refering up in the top my mod assembly line doesn't use a lot of power for auto crafting. This is mainly for both the fact it uses an robotic arm in combo with the crafting table, and buildcraft uses zero power for its crafting. Just felt like adding that to the thread in case anyone wondered.
  19. DarkGuardsman Administrator

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Location:
    Ohio,USA

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